I refrained from speaking publicly about this again, because I am currently sorting through my reaction on the latest news about Ergun, but because Southern Baptists and it seems others like to fight so much, this has become the next topic of contention in the blogosphere. So I will answer this in hope of laying it to rest once and for all. Or at least to give people something to think about. I’m a straight talker so no one will have to question what I say. First SBCToday, Welcome To SBCToday, Ergun was not exonerated. He was found guilty. You do not relieve a man of his Presidential duties and say he was found innocent. That is ridiculous and untrue. Come on and start being honest. It’s over.
Yes, I did say at the beginning and all through my writings or I at least asked the question is Ergun Caner a ex- Muslim. As far as I know I am the only one who questioned this along with the other fallacies I questioned. I talked to Mohammad and others about this and came to the conclusion that in the sight of a Muslim, which should be what matters in this case, he is not a Muslim. It doesn’t matter what we as non-Muslims think. We make up definitions to suit us. Shoot we twist verses to suit us. It is not up to us to decide whether Ergun was a true Muslim or not, it is the definition of Islam and the Muslim that matters. We are to tell the truth about them as we give them the gospel, not make up our own definitions to suit us. So I went to the source. The Muslim. Some call that blind devotion, I call it going to the source who happened to be my friend Mohammad. I also checked different Muslim sites which confirmed that information.
It is compared to one who is a Christian and leaves the faith for another religion or abandons the faith of Christianity all together. They were never truly born again to begin with. It is the same with the Muslims.
To the Muslim, a person is not born into a family and automatically become Muslim. They must believe the words of the Quran and be a practicing Muslim to be considered a Muslim. If he is not practicing, He was never a true Muslim to begin with. That is where I got my view. I looked at this through Muslim eyes. It is they who have been wronged by Ergun’s lies, more than we have. If we are not going to be honest on everything, it is going to be hard to gain their trust on the Gospel that we give them. We are also going against what the Bible teaches us on honesty. It should be who we are in everything.
I have not changed my mind, but in my personal Christian opinion, saying Ergun is not a devout Muslim is saying the same thing. To a Muslim however that is not acceptable. To be honest, I would have to concede to the Muslims view. Why? It is there view that matters as Ergun was speaking about them, their religion as if he was an expert. He is not however.
This was not the only argument I made however, I also through video and other sources obtained by other bloggers saw that he made many statements that were not true about his background. He was not trained as a jihadist, he did not ever live in Turkey or any other country besides Sweden and the United States. This is being overlooked to focus on one question I had at the beginning of all of this and while I was the only one who questioned Ergun being a real Muslim or not, led to finding other false information he gave, possibly even his conversion story(Jerry Tackett? Grandmother??) which led to his demotion from President to only teaching at LU.
Is it because we don’t want to give Muslims any credit on being right? Mohammad was the one who showed all the different discrepancies. He was right in everything he showed. Right down to the gibberish Ergun was speaking. James White said Mohammad was right in those areas, because he was. James White was being honest and having integrity. James White agrees with all of you that Ergun was a Muslim. Liberty agrees with this. But James White has stressed that Ergun was not a devout Muslim. I would agree with it if my view, James White’s view or Liberty’s view mattered on this. It does not. The Muslim belief according to Islam does matter. It is the only one that does matter in my opinion. I am repeating but trying to make this as clear as I can.
I am going to be blunt. This is turning into a craziness now. I read that this person did this and this person showed that when the truth is that we all worked together in a way that was amazing to me, so many using their talents and sources I did not have to put all this together, and I thought we were doing it for the good of the church, for the glory of God, not media rights. Each of you who had a part in this did extraordinary work. Your resources were just short of a miracle in my opinion. It was great to watch all of you come with pieces of the puzzle to make it one whole picture. All of you were just wonderful.
Most of the media has not talked to me but read my blog and got information from that as I said they could do.I talked to some media but not all who have reported on this. I do not care who is in the media, or who gets the credit, because ultimately God gets the credit. If truth be told most of you who are yelling now wanted to drop this from the beginning after Ergun’s first apology that was inaccurate even then and ultimately pulled down. I did not accept that first apology and was the only one who didn’t then. I am comfortable in standing alone on my convictions. But it was not any of us, but God who I believe brought all of this to pass. He used the one thing we didn’t expect, a Muslim to show us our filth and sin. He brought us all together to work as one. Southern Baptists and those who were not Southern Baptist along with a Muslim who brought this all to us to begin with. Yet I see fighting for the very spotlight that Ergun fought for. The very thing that was his downfall others are fighting about. Yet it was God who brought this to fruit. God opened this up and God provided through other Christians the information that brought all this together. Good grief people. Stop trying to be media hounds and start being the people we are, Christians who believed lying was wrong. Muslims are still watching and seeing a whole other side of Christians. The very ones that need Christ, need to see Christ first. Instead some are slinging mud at Muslims we are to be winning for Christ. 9/11 mindset? I believe so. The very mindset Ergun used to further his persona.
Mohammad brought this to us or none of us would have questioned and James White made the first video which I saw through a link given in Wade’s blog by another commenter. Mohammad should be given our deep gratitude and love, friendship, not slinging of stones. Think about that. Would Christ do to Muslims what you are all doing now? And for what? Credit? None of us deserves the credit. None of us. Think about that for awhile, while you continue to fight among yourselves. I for one am sick of it.
You too are hurting the church, and dragging Christ’s name through the mud. I have been accused of being a Muslim apologist. That is not true either. I do not believe Islam to be of God or a true religion. I believe faith in Christ and his works is the way of life and the only way to heaven. But we must be honest to Muslims when speaking about them and their religion. We are ignorant of Islam, they as Muslims are not. They know what they believe. We do not. I do not know how to be plainer. It reminds me of the passage,
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. (NIV)
Comments on: "Yes, I Did Say And Do Say That Ergun Caner Was Not A Muslim And Why" (26)
The LU committee found that Dr. Caner was INDEED a former Muslim who converted to Christianity as a young teenager. Please RE-READ the statement released on 6/25/10 by the University.
“However, the committee found no evidence to suggest that Dr. Caner was not a Muslim who converted to Christianity as a teenager…”
And that is what I am addressing. I can see after reading it why you may not see that. I revised some of it to make that clearer. Read my post again capps. I am saying from a Muslim’s belief of what a Muslim is I disagree.
Debbie,
I do appreciate the role you have played in shining the light on the pattern of deception perpetrated from pulpits by Ergun Caner. And I do agree that we ought to let Muslims define Muslim theology. How it irks me when, for example, some will claim that “Limited atonement means that Christ did not die for all who believe on Him.”
However, one thing to keep in mind is that Islam is vast and there is much theological variety within it. I have encountered, for example, a number of Muslims who claim that all human beings are born Muslim. Even more, they are born believing Muslims who have already made confession of faith in Allah in their pre-existance before their birth.
This makes you, me, and all those who reject Islam today “former Muslims.” While clearly not all Muslims hold this position, it is clearly not a fringe position. It is my impression that it could be considered the majority view in Islam.
The following Muslim site explains this doctrine clearly and succinctly. Here’s and excerpt:
“The Prophet Muhammad said, “No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)…
The question which arises here is, “How can all people be expected to believe in Allah given their varying- backgrounds, societies and cultures? For people to be responsible for worshipping Allah they all have to have access to knowledge of Allah. The final revelation teaches that all mankind have the recognition of Allah imprinted on their souls, a part of their very nature with which they are created.
In Soorah Al-A’raaf, Verses 172-173; Allah explained that when He created Adam, He caused all of Adam’s descendants to come into existence and took a pledge from them saying, Am I not your Lord? To which they all replied, ” Yes, we testify to It:’”
My point is that it is possible that those who believe that EC is a former Muslim can certainly find Muslims who would agree. Although, obviously not for the same reasons.
Thank you for this information which helps me too. And you are right that there are differing beliefs in Islams as there are in Christianity. That is a point I have tried to stress as well. Thank you for bringing that point up.
The passages you have given however are speaking of before the age of accountability. According to Islam, you were a Muslim, I was a Muslim, the whole human race is a Muslim before the age of accountability. Yet, if asked to you personally, were you a Muslim, what would the honest reply be? Yes? I doubt it. So these passages when taken in context to Islam have no relevance as to Ergun or Emir being a Muslim. For this passage is saying we all were Muslims at one time.
Oops, forgot the list the site. Here it is:
http://www.islam101.com/dawah/newBorn.htm
“The LU committee found that Dr. Caner was INDEED a former Muslim who converted to Christianity as a young teenager.”
So what? There words mean less than nothing. They have destroyed their own integrity and credibility. Why should anyone believe what the LU committee said? LU actively colluded with Caner when they silently doctored his bio and again when they filed phony copyright infringement charges with YouTube and again when they exonerated him in April after they supposedly had “held an inquiry” that they later said “wasn’t an inquiry or anything like that.”
And to top it all off, they chose to keep a known serial liar on staff after their phony “inquiry.”
LU has ZERO credibility.
And that is the dilemma I am in Richard. I am caught between your point here, which is valid, and other thoughts I am having. This is why the working through. I think we as the people are the final deciding factor. Tom Chantry in his post has a good point when he writes:
CRBC Pastoral Blog [Tom Chantry] > A Declaration from Liberty
The Ergun Caner’s of the world are not going away because one of them was caught. The peddlers of falsehood will continue to plague the church. They can only be thwarted when we stop exalting talented ministers without regard for truth or character, when we demand that preachers give us Christ and the Scriptures rather than anecdotes and jokes, when we recover a sense of the glory of God in worship and put away our crass desire for entertainment, and when we trust God to give growth to the church rather than put our faith in men and programs.
Thank you again Thy Peace. And again Tom Chantry is the voice of reason.
I feel sorry for you, Debbie. Your personal vendetta has made you a sad, pathetic individual. You’re almost as pathetic as your pastor, if that’s even possible.
Troy: When is calling for truth and honesty in Christianity a vendetta? A vendetta for what? Personal holiness? It is this kind of mentality that I question how many who call themselves Christians are? If the ends justifies the means that is not something I can condone nor do I see the Bible condoning. I am simply calling for some type of accountability when it comes to dishonesty. Christianity should never be filled with lies and truth. Christ is truth Troy and in that is no room for lying. None. We either clean up and start repenting or we are not able to give anyone anything let alone the Gospel. To do so is borderline blasphemy in my opinion. If that is pathetic to you, then may I always be pathetic, in fact I want to become even more pathetic.
Debbie,
Your reponse to Troy from Florida is as clear a statement as can be made it seems to me. Thank you.
I join you in wearing the badge of “pathetic” as defined by Troy as a badge of honor. May your “pathetic” number increase is my prayer. No joke, no sarcasm, just reality.
I appreciate your efforts, Debbie, and all those who stand up and say that it DOES matter if you’re telling the truth, regardless of how entertaining you are as a speaker.
I wholeheartedly agree with Tom Chantry above. Ergun Caner could point his finger at his audiences and say, “I was simply providing YOU with what you want: a dramatic testimony that affirms your faith, given in an entertaining way.” There will always be those who are good at what they do and enjoy the power and celebrity status given to them. And those who stand on stages and shout, etc. or entertain do not seem to be the apologizing types to me. At least not sincerely apologizing-maybe incorporating it into their “act.”
Like in Hollywood-”no such thing as bad publicity.” Don’t you think tons of people will flock to find out what Caner’s gonna say next? The numbers will increase, I think.
I recently listened online to a preacher like I’ve heard speak zillions of times growing up and as an adult. I grew up Independent Baptist in the South. It was fascinating to me to closely listen to what he actually said. It was extremely lacking in substance and full of “entertainment.” Congregations should start analyzing sermons they hear to really comprehend what “wisdom” they are actually receiving.
Again, I say that people like Caner are simply giving the people in the pews what they want-otherwise the people would not tolerate the insult to their intelligence that is going on. It’s time for the people in the pews to pick between celebrity speakers and those who are sincerely and humbly trying to find truth.
Debbie:
I would say what you believe is MORALISM, It is another gospel!
It is a type of legalism
So if you advocate for living your life on the level of truth Robert, then it’s another gospel? My how we have strayed…
Robert: To hold a leader accountable for lying is moralism? Another gospel? And where does repentance for sin fall under Robert? I have to agree with Alan.
[...] Caner’s not being a Muslim is something that has been challenged from the very beginning, and is still being challenged. Dr. Caner, after the committee has exonerated him, is still being charged with this by the very [...]
From Justin Taylor: Just One Question For The Trustees Of Liberty University.
Debbie:
I disagree with you here. You cannot allow one Muslim to speak for all Muslims, or even a group or strand of Muslims to represent the entire faith. Look at the diversity in Judaism: Reform, Orthodox, Conservative etc.
And then there is our own faith. Would a Buddhist be capable of making a definitive statement whether a Roman Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness or Unitarian (and in this group I include oneness pentecostals) is Christian? Because many Roman Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and Unitarians certainly REGARD themselves as such, and not only that, many of them regard themselves as the true Christians in the only true church. (And if you dispute my decision to include Roman Catholics on my list above, well that only aids my point.)
Mohammed’s definition would exclude a huge percentage of the 1.1 to 1.6 billion Muslims (according to various estimates) on the earth. This includes “Muslim countries” (i.e. Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia) where a large percent of the population cares more about day to day living than the Koran (making them no different from a western nation’s “professed Christians” who have been baptized and are listed on church membership rolls but rarely pray, read their Bibles, or attend services).
Also, there are agendas at work here. Lots of people, seeking to defend their own religions, go through great lengths to discredit the testimonies of converts to Christianity. Muslims are far from alone in resorting to this tactic. But many a Muslim apologist has contrived limited, restricted definitions of “who is a Muslim” for the purposes of minimizing the number of people who leave Islam for other religions, and especially to discredit former Muslims who go on to vocally criticize the religion. Now granted, Dr. Caner is not an ideal example of this. But there are plenty of folks targeted by the “fake ex-Muslim watch” types who would readily be accepted by these same people as “current Muslims” had they never converted.
Take http://www.fakeexmuslims.com … “Testimonies of ex Muslims who have embraced Christianity have become widespread on the television as well as on the internet. Some of these conversion stories may well be true, whilst most of them can easily be disproven.” Also consider above: “To the Muslim, a person is not born into a family and automatically become Muslim. They must believe the words of the Quran and be a practicing Muslim to be considered a Muslim. If he is not practicing, He was never a true Muslim to begin with.” Doesn’t that render it impossible for a “true Muslim” to ever leave Islam?
So, if a person is going to deny that Dr. Caner was a Muslim, it should not be based on the opinion of agenda-driven Muslim chauvinists and apologists who can easily themselves be accused of holding converts from their religion to higher standards than many who are still in it. Instead, it should be based on questions like Caner’s religious life in Sweden, the age that he came to America, and especially Caner’s religious attitudes after the divorce of his mother and father. Of course, Caner grotesquely oversold his Muslim background in order to take advantage of the post 9/11 climate. But one should not exclude the possibility that Dr. Caner was at least a nominal Muslim simply because Muslim apologists take the stance that “nominal Muslims don’t exist” whenever one such Muslim converts to Christianity.
Job: Who knows more about Islam and what a true Muslim is better than Muslims themselves. Would we allow another religion to misspeak about Christianity? No, because who knows more about what we believe than we do. If you can provide a link from a credible site that disproves what I have said then please provide it, but reasoning and what we think is a Muslim or an ex-Muslim doesn’t matter, especially if it is not true. Muslims do tell the truth. Mohammad did about Ergun. Here is another source: A True Muslim. Here is another: This article goes into the beliefs of Muslims. These are not radical Muslims but Muslims.
To say do not go to the source for information just doesn’t make sense to me. Of course for accurate information you go directly to the source. From our standpoint you have good points to consider and nominal or non-devout I have no problem with. Yet it is that wording that is lacking in the LU statement. He does not know key things that any nominal Muslim would know. That too presents a problem. A weekend with his dad does not a Muslim make. Consider when the divorce took place on Jason Smather’s time line, the other documents.
As of now I am still sifting through my thoughts as to the LU statement, but I am answering those who rightfully said that I questioned him being a true Muslim. I did. I still do, but it is less of an issue for me than the other discrepancies found and whether he should even be professor. I am thinking on this. I don’t know. I long to show mercy and grace, but short of a truly repentant heart which I would wish to be done publicly, I do not know.
Debbie:
I attended college with Muslims, live in an area with a moderately sized and growing Muslim population, and as such have had the opportunity to make some Muslim acquaintances and have plenty of conversations with Muslims. So, it can be said that I “went to the source” just as you did. The Muslims that I have known and spoken with had differing definitions, or opinions if you will, of who is a Muslim and who isn’t.
“Would we allow another religion to misspeak about Christianity?”
We don’t need other religions to do that. Professed Christians do plenty of that themselves. Were a oneness pentecostal, an ecumenist, an open theist, a pluralist, or a theological liberal to make a statement on who is a Christian and who isn’t, I wouldn’t automatically regard it as being authoritative. I can very much imagine the Hindu stating “I went to the source and discovered that you can be a Christian and believe that Hinduism offers its own path to God and heaven” or the Muslim stating “I went to the source and found out that you don’t have to believe in Trinity to be a Christian.” And I have had Jews tell me that Christians should stop sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with Jews because John Hagee (and those like him who teach dual covenant theology) says so.
We just can’t say that Dr. Caner wasn’t a Muslim just because it is the opinion of some Muslims that he wasn’t.
Debbie,
“My sins, my sins, my Saviour,
How sad on Thee they fall.”
Conviction of sin is one of the rarest things that ever strikes a man. It is the threshold of an understanding of God. Jesus Christ said that when the Holy Spirit came He would convict of sin, and when the Holy Spirit rouses a man’s conscience and brings him into the presence of God, it is not his relationship with men that bothers him, but his relationship with God – “against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in Thy sight.” The marvels of conviction of sin, forgiveness, and holiness are so interwoven that it is only the forgiven man who is the holy man, he proves he is forgiven by being the opposite to what he was, by God’s grace. Repentance always brings a man to this point: I have sinned. The surest sign that God is at work is when a man says that and means it. Anything less than this is remorse for having made blunders, the reflex action of disgust at himself.
The entrance into the Kingdom is through the panging pains of repentance crashing into a man’s respectable goodness; then the Holy Ghost, Who produces these agonies, begins the formation of the Son of God in the life. The new life will manifest itself in conscious repentance and unconscious holiness, never the other way about. The bedrock of Christianity is repentance. Strictly speaking, a man cannot repent when he chooses; repentance is a gift of God. The old Puritans used to pray for “the gift of tears.” If ever you cease to know the virtue of repentance, you are in darkness. Examine yourself and see if you have forgotten how to be sorry.
- Oswald Chambers
The standards that I applied when concluding that EC was not a Muslim (a change from my initial opinion) were the same standards that were applied to my daughters when they expressed interest in becoming Christians. I would not be willing to claim that Islam has lower standards than Christianity in this respect. But I have been convinced by various comments (above) that standards vary–and that I don’t know what they are.
Job: Forgive me if this sounds as it may sound I do not mean it in a condescending way, but in a realistic way. I gave you links that you have ignored. That is hardly being an expert. I also work and live among Muslims yet I am not an expert. Only a Muslim knows what Muslims believe, and as far as I can tell being born into a Muslim home with one parent a Muslim,, who is not in the home and has very minimal influence, does not a Muslim make. I will certainly look into this, but so far my position is if you say Ergun was not a devout Muslim(practicing) or if he was not a Muslim that is essentially the same thing. To a Muslim he is not a Muslim. There is no in between you are either practicing or you are not a Muslim.
You also completely went around my question to you. We would correct those outside of Christianity who got what we believe(which is the core, Christ is the Son of God, born of the virgin Mary etc.) wrong. We know what the Bible teaches in those areas and even those denominations you mention above teach this, it is the core of Christianity. This is not a debate or one upmanship here. Be realistic, not in debate mode here.
If you had a time-machine and you climbed into it and went back in time to Columbus, Ohio, in the 1970′s, and ran into the Caner brothers playing in the street, and you asked them, ‘What religion are you boys?,’ what do you think they would say?
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