Since 2006,when I began blogging, I have been concerned about several things in the SBC realm. One thing became a concern after the exposing of Darrell Gilyard, whose background was discovered to be a fake. This after he had molested several women in his time of ministry. Then there was Ted Haggard, who, while preaching against homosexuality was practicing it. Actually I think it began before my blogging years, back when Jimmy Swaggert engaged a prostitute. The lesson I learned was to question and make sure that those shining Baptist stars are who they claim to be.
Now there is a question on Ergun Caner, who I do not suspect being guilty of immorality, but of stretching the truth, possibly making parts of his background up. Is he who he says he is? Are either of the brothers who they say they are? But for now I want to focus on Ergun. Can we believe anything Ergun Caner says? There are just too many facts with iron clad audio and video proof that have come to light and cannot be ignored.
We are Christians and truth should be who we are no matter what the result. If we seem boring, so be it. If it doesn’t bring thousands to Christ or even hundreds, so be it. If no one knows our name, so be it. We are to be honest in every single area of our lives and that includes our testimonies(see earlier post).
It seems in my probing and researching, that Ergun is being less than truthful about both his Muslim background and his claim that he is open to debate “anytime, anywhere, anyplace”. I want to present these facts with proof, that I have uncovered, and one can decide for themselves. I might add that there is a lot more evidence than I am presenting here, but one can get a small taste of why I am concerned just from the small amount of proof I present here.
1. Ergun claims to be born in Istanbul Turkey. On his website bio he claims to have been raised in Turkey. Yet in his book entitled Unveiling Islam, Google books page 17, he says that he was born in Stockholm Sweden then he and his family came to America. No mention of Turkey.
2. In an interview with John Ankerberg, he said that he was born in Stockholm, Sweden, but yet in this same video, a talk he gave at another time period,shows him saying he was born in Istanbul, Turkey, then came to America after going to Beirut and Cairo. In the same sequence, it is brought out that he is not speaking Turkish, but gibberish.
My question is Which is it? What’s the truth?
3. Caner addresses this set of videos on a question and answer on his site, but doesn’t go far enough and I cannot find where he answers any of the obvious changes in his story, in fact he says he laughs them off, but it seems that he just refuses to discuss them, hoping they will fade away. So again, which is it? The videos, albeit from a Muslim, cannot be overlooked. The words out of Ergun’s own mouth are undeniable. The inconsistencies many. I viewed ten videos that are full of untruths and the changing of Dr. Caner’s story coming from Dr. Caner’s own mouth.
4. James White has recently brought out, with video proofs, the claims Ergun makes to be a debater, yet has not one time debated anyone in person. He does interviews, he talks to people but he has never, ever done a formal debate.Dr. Caner has also repeatedly confused two Muslim debaters , one being Shabir Aly,who James White himself has debated(again he provides video proof). He also has some questions about Dr. Caner’s story about his background.
White, who has studied and debated the Muslim religion in depth since 2005, has been concerned that Caner has not only confused Shabir Aly(who Dr. Caner says is an Islāmic leader. He isn’t) with another Muslim, but also claimed he was dead, when as you can see in the video, is very much alive. His question is if you are brought up in the Muslim religion how could you confuse the two men? I have the same question. Watch his video here. He has provided video evidence of Caners many inconsistencies.
The video is in response to a statement Ergun made about debates and debating Reformed “guys”: “I like very informal ones. Formal debates have been taken over a lot by myopic Reformed guys, uh, they try to turn it into these little, uh, show ponies, it’s like the Jerry Springer Show, basically, and there’s really not any real discussion going on, there’s rolling of eyes, its huffing and passive/aggressive garbage.” -Ergun Caner, 20:40 of The Pastor’s Perspective program, January 22, 2010.
(Then at a later point) “Any doctrine that diminishes the omnibenevolence of God, that He loves the Muslim, and died for the Muslim to be saved, and has a desire for…any doctrine that diminishes that is not from God, it’s from the devil.”
James White again proves this statement by Dr. Caner wrong by showing himself in a couple formal debates with a very much alive Shabir Aly, doing anything but rolling his eyes and huffing and puffing.
If Ergun is being less than honest, or dishonest about his knowledge of the Muslim religion or his background,his claim of having debated those from all over the world, what else is he being dishonest about?
As Christians we must quit going after the sensational, making men or women stars of the Southern Baptist realm. TV stars. We like a show. But, 1. It takes our eyes off of Christ and onto the person being glamorized or if we are the ones lying, it puts our eyes on ourselves. 2. We are Christians. We are called to a higher standard. We are to be honest in our dealing with other people. People do trust us(although due to things such as this, it is getting less and less for good reason).
People give their money to many of these men, buy their books, support their ministries, which in Dr. Caner’s case is Liberty University, and I consider it stealing if they are giving under false pretenses. In the social world this is called a scam and scams have happened many times in the Southern Baptist world. Far too often.
There are those who call for holiness, yet, believe, and support Dr. Caner. Tell me if what I have found is true, and I don’t know how you can refute video evidence, then is this holy? Is this right? Shouldn’t this be confronted with love? I believe so.
I also think that we are to blame. We idolize people with backgrounds such as Dr. Caner claims. We raise people up, we polish them, and present them to the world. While our motives may seem right, our method is all wrong, and once again Christ is left out of the equation. As you can see from many of Dr. Caner’s talks, sensationalism replaces humility, love, and leads to adding to his testimony, literally making things up because both versions cannot be true. This should be of deep concern to us.
For more sources about the 2006 debate that wasn’t: Tom Ascol/Founders Blog: The 2006 Debate That Wasn’t: Blow by blow facts.
Alpha and Omega Ministries: This Speaks For Itself The 2006 Caner/White/Ascol Almost Debate-Continue through to the next post which link you will find in the upper right corner of the page.
Debbie,
The thesis of your blog is one with which I TOTALLY agree. I’m going to follow you and others as this unfolds.
I do wonder about his web-site. As I read it he did not claim to be BORN in Turkey. Only that he was RAISED in Turkey. I wonder why this carefully worded statement on his web-site is this way!! Birthplace deniability? I’m wondering.
Debbie,
Have you called his office or emailed him to find out before posting such a post as this?
Does he know how to reply?
So far he has not replied to anything as he claims!
Tim,
She got the confusing nformation from PUBLIC sources. And from Caner himself. What you are requesting is a cop out. He might never return her calls and you can keep on lambasting her as being in sin until she talks to him personally.
This is the game you guys play all too often. I call it the Christian protection racket.
It reminds me of Hollywood actors. They want folks to stay out of their private lives but paste themselves all over the media. The same with Christian celebrities.
Debbie,
Here are some simple facts for you.
He was born in Sweden- his first book is dedicated to Maria Eleonora Lindberg – grandmother. Does that SOUND like they are hiding it?
His dad was Turkish. Every uncle, cousin, niece and nephew is Turkish. His two half-sisters are Turkish! In Judaism you are what your mother is. In Islam, you are what your father is. He is a Turk!
His mom was adopted in Sweden, but is not Swedish. His grandmother and grandfather adopted her. They kept that part quiet because it was kept from them until 1989.
The man who led him to Christ is still alive. Clarence Miller. He has attended all his inaugurations and graduations. If he or Emir were two white boys lying about being devout Muslims, do you really think he would abide that?
Debbie,
I think you owe both Caners an apology.
Apology is what the caners owe the world! For their endless lies!
He is a Turk? Err…soo? No one said he is not…Just coz he is a Turk doesnt automatically make him a Muslim…
A muslim is definied by certain characters…the 1st thing should be the testimony of faith..When THIS is wrong your not in the category… coz this testimony puts u in the category to be called a MUSLIM…of course you dont know that…tou need to read up on Islam before you “pose” to be one.
And CANER got the decree wrong…nothing else applies to ISLAM…If ur testimony of faith is wrong!
If you find such information offensive..i suggest you dont try to be someone you are not…EVERY MUSLIM could tell how much of a Muslim he is when he couldnt say the testimony!
By the way,
This is what we call “FREEDOM OF SPEECH”
You can not limit Debbie’s freedom under any circumstances!
She has the freedom to write what she sees…and what she concludes…
Tim,
Leaving aside Dr Caner’s many references to having been born in Istanbul, and having spent his teenage years in Turkey (demonstrably false), your contention that one’s father defines one’s race ‘in Islam’ is incorrect and, frankly, somewhat shallow. Please could you document why you believe this?
By stating that Dr Caner’s mother is ‘not Swedish’ you are implying she is in fact Turkish, thus justifying Dr Caner’s claims. Could you supply any documentation on this, please? Legal documents and Emir Caner’s testimony indicate that Mrs Caner came from a Swedish Lutheran background.
You would be doing the allies and critics of Dr Caner a great service by giving us more information on Clarence Miller. Dr Caner told us in one of his speeches that Mr Miller’s church was predominantly African-American. Documentation on this subject would be very helpful to all. Thank you in advance for any contribution you can make to clarification.
Jesus is Lord
Lydia,
The public sources are clear as I stated them above. Sometimes people get info from “public” sources that have a personal agenda as does Mr. White.
Paul: Yet in his book, which I have linked to, page 17 he says that he was born in Stockholm Sweden, and then came to America. No mention of Turkey at all. His brother was born in Ohio.
Tim: No I have not emailed Dr. Caner nor will I. The videos are him, no doubt, he is saying what he is saying, no doubt. The facts speak for themselves. That should be what you are questioning,not whether I called Dr. Caner or not.
He knows about the information, he wrote the book,he spoke in the videos, his response is to laugh it off. I’m not laughing. James White asks some good questions.
Of course they have a personal agenda Tim, but that is definitely Dr. Caner in those videos. Those are his exact words coming from his mouth. They(those who put up the video) are pretty angry at his obvious mistakes.
Debbie,
Since I believe “born in______” is a fact that isn’t changed by whether you’re Jewish, Muslim, or Christian the video seems to present a problem with either memory or character.
This was my point in my first comment. His bio on his web-site says he was raised in Turkey. So I’m assuming he would say his video was a slip of the tongue and he intended to say “raised in Turkey.”
This alone would not be a problem to me but I’m continuing to follow some other things you’ve brought out that give too much weight to your argument for me to not follow the developments.
For what it’s worth I don’t think you owe anyone a personal contact or an apology for speaking about what has been spoken or done publically by them. If you make conclusive assessments about his words or actions and are wrong in your conclusions you would owe him an apology. If you are right, he would owe the apology.
From the ‘for what it’s worth department’ I always appreciate your spirit of concern and love that comes through when you speak the truth as you see it. Thanks. Would that your number multiply.
Debbie and Paul,
This is beyond reasonable thought. A guy who claims to be a Christian goes and uses material produced by Muslims to attack another Christian?????? For Mr. White to do that is beyond comprehension. Not to mention the fact that the Muslims have sent (and this verified)death threats to his entire family detailing the acts they will commit.
Why not ask Mr. White how many Muslims he has led to Lord? Why not ask him why as a Christian he would use material of Muslims to attack his brother in Christ? All of this over a debate and a desire to get a debate?
This is horrible and proves the point that blogging has become the real Jerry Springer show in America.
You as a Christian discriminate? Then you preach that Muslims hate Christians? Isnt that what you are preaching now? Hate the Muslims coz you can not answer the lies that are coming up from within you?
So what if he is a Muslim? He is capable of telling the truth better than one who was not even raised as a Muslim (Dr. Caner)
Paul,
You as a Pastor should know this type of stuff is beyond the realm of Christian conduct.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
Paul: I have reflected the fact that he said he was raised in Turkey on his website in my post.
I do think consistency is important. Therefore, I ask of some of you, why was not President Obama’s birthdate of no importance to you? You played questions about that as if it meant nothing. Just wondering.
That should have been:
“….why was President Obama’s “birthplace” of no importance to you?
Sorry.
I am shocked that no one is questioning a Christian using Muslim media and propaganda against another Christian???
And all to have a silly debate.
So Muslims are not human?
What are you trying to teach?
Please elaborate….
Your hate has blinded you quiet well!
Debbie,
have you thought about his family? They are threatened routinely by the garbage you are getting off of White’s web site.
Christiams should act better than this. Stop feeding the true evil people this fuel to their fire. Have more class than Mr White has!
And you do not think of the Muslims? Due to his hate preaching Muslims are attacked all over the world!! You can see evidence all over the net…Is this what Jesus asked? To bring the world into chaos after i (Jesus) leave?
No one is complaining about that!
Tim G,
You have hit upon something that I can speak to with knowledge here.
It is a fact that the Caners and their families have been threatened with violent death by the hands of some very capable people.
Therefore, I think this post is one that could bring more hardship on those guys families. I would not go so far as to say this post depicts depraved indifference, but I would say there it depicts a great degree of thoughtless. Yeah, that’s it, not heartlessness, but most certainly thoughtlessness.
These questions need to be asked. I have spent the night checking every fact for myself, and it is there. It’s not hard to find inconsistencies. I am openly questioning those inconsistencies. I have provided links to those obvious, can’t be denied inconsistencies.
As for Obama, I voted Republican, he proved to my satisfaction that he is a US Citizen, that he was telling the truth which is why it was not pursued any longer by anyone since his induction in office, and what has that got to do with this post? He is not in the capacity of a Christian leader. One has nothing to do with the other. Read my comment on we are called to a higher standard.
All anyone has to do is do as I did and check these facts out. This person or persons has not lied. They have emailed Dr. Caner with questions that as I read the few he left up, were polite and direct.
I was able to verify what the person or persons who have posted the videos and James White has said concerning inconsistencies.I read everything they provided as proof, listened and watched every piece of evidence they have given more than once. I have provided a small piece of those verifications on this post, but I have painstakingly verified them through many hours of research for myself. I wouldn’t have posted this had I not.
I believe James White has asked good questions, has provided substantial proof(that is definitely without question in my mind Ergun Caner speaking in those videos. His mouth moving matches the words coming out) and it is not just for a debate, but legitimate questions that we should all be asking.
The point is that Dr. Caner says he has done debates all over the world, yet no evidence of this is found. Again that in my book is dishonesty. It should be questioned. I am. James White is.
Debbie,
People have checked these things out. Do you think these accusations are new?
They are not new Debbie. I think you should truly search your heart about this one. I do not believe you to be a heartless person. I do think you have been thoughtless here. That may be of course, because you do not know the seriousness of the threats against these two guys and their families.
Their children are somewhere around the ages of those three blond granddaughters of your I think. Maybe you ought to pull this one down before it gets so heated by those who have an ax to grind with everything CR.
BTW, the Caner brothers were not part of the CR.
Debbie,
Checking out Mr White is reading propaganda. Please hear what CB is saying. This no SBC stuff. This is real life and death stuff and one man who cares more his PR than he does a fellow Chriatian and his family.
CB:
You said:”Maybe you ought to pull this one down before it gets so heated by those who have an ax to grind with everything CR.
BTW, the Caner brothers were not part of the CR.”
Just a minute now, till the point you mentioned the CR no one else did, so maybe it is you that is sensitive about the CR.
CB:
One more passing thought, just when did the CR end–year-date-month? I thought it was still going on, maybe I am mistaken.
Debbie,
I appeal to you, under the title of your blog, and as a follower of Christ. Remove this post as you have placed the lives of people in jeopardy.
Please remove it.
Blessings,
Tim
I appeal to you please remove Dr. Caner all problems will be solved automatically!
Either that or ask him to repent and come clear!
We need the answers…make them public and not just for staff members!
Why the secrecy?
I’ll second that, SHAS.
The appeals to censor Debbie for not threatening anyone are preposterous. Praise the Lord for pastor Wade with guts to stand up for her speaking the truth and asking for truthful answers.
Debbie,
Please ck your email.
“Maybe you ought to pull this one down before it gets so heated by those who have an ax to grind with everything CR.”
With all the carnage that has been done, it would seem the if any axes had been ground, it would have been those in the hands of the CR. So many attempts to ruin others, and for what? Please don’t say it has ‘led to good’. No one believes that because of all the harm done to innocent lives.
Debbie,
I’ve been away for a while. Sorry for not responding earlier. It seems to me there may be a bit of hyperbole being used in some of the comments.
I do want to admit to 55 years of ministry producing a bit of experience in having to face public comments and actions of my own for which I had to give an answer. I think that is only fair and right. I had to do it in a smaller public context of course. [public nonetheless] Here on a blog it is obviously a much wider public context. The principle remains the same however. I think that too is fair and right.
I have stated my agreement with your thesis that christians and especially christian leaders are to be trustworthy and truthful with public words and actions. I join you in that. Your example on this post is of someone I believe should be and is, in fact, able to handle whatever challenge may come his way for what he’s said or done. He is able to GIVE public challenge and I’m sure he can TAKE public challenge.[Think camel] He is a leader after all. This is far better than the old way of trying to deal with leaders that kept issues under the cloak of darkness and even kept the correction hidden. Light disinfects us all doesn’t it!!
Besides that, we all have a personal responsibility as a Convention of churches in seeing that appointed leaders speak and act truthfully. They must never be elevated above being questioned and, with due respect to commenters, fearfulness of consequences [some hyperbole excercised here] must never keep us from asking the tough questions. But a spirit of grace must always be seen as yours is in my opinion.
That is to be the difference I believe. What ever the issue, we do it in a different spirit. To refrain from shaming, condemning, and manipulative anger in giving pros/cons on any issue should be a given where grace is known. You have always demonstrated that in my judgment and have done so here.
I too am unwilling to accept as valid the leadership of anyone where words and actions have a need to be questioned as to their veracity. This is not unchristian. The Gospels record this happening to religious leaders as do other books of scripture.
Thank you for allowing some discussion by all of us. We all profit from it. Even leaders who will listen and respond with grace.
Paul,
Please check your email!
Tim Guthrie,
Thank you for your phone call. I had not read Debbie’s post nor the comments until just now, alerted to them by your call. I appreciate that you are concerned for a brother in Christ and his family, and I was fully prepared to ask Debbie to remove the post if I read it and saw something inappropriate and out of bounds.
I must say, however, that I after reading Debbie’s post, I am now confused. It seems that she is simply asking for clarification about a brother in Christ’s birthplace and background since PUBLIC statements by that same brother in Christ seem to contradict. If we Christians can’t ask those questions of one another, then who will?
I would think the solution would be forthrightness and honesty. However, when the following statements are made to Debbie for asking the questions:
?Remove this post as you have placed the lives of people in jeopardy.” Tim Rogers What?? Are not Christians, particularly Muslim Christians, who share Christ with/to Muslims in jeopardy anyway? Danger has nothing to do with Debbie asking questions and everything to do with dangerous Muslims.
:”Maybe you ought to pull this one down before it gets so heated by those who have an ax to grind with everything CR” CB Scott That confused logic, if followed, would lead a church member to cover up “immorality” of the pastor because he is “preaching the gospel” on Sundays.
“Why not ask Mr. White how many Muslims he has led to Lord? Why not ask him why as a Christian he would use material of Muslims to attack his brother in Christ? All of this over a debate and a desire to get a debate?” Tim Guthrie Come on guys. Comparing notches on the evangelism belt in no way deflects someone from answering an honest question.
Tim, in my experience, the louder people scream at the person who is asking tough questions, the closer to the uncomfortable truth the questioner has come.
Sorry, there will be no request from me to Debbie to remove this post as you have asked of me. Just get your friend to answer the questions, and if there is a clear and rational explanation for conflicting accounts of his birth and background, then it will all blow over.
And if he has used subterfuge or been dishonest, then he needs to just apologize. We Christians know how to forgive.
We are also learning how to resist intimidation.
In His Grace,
Wade
Brother Paul,
Your example of being truthful is something I agree with you on. I also agree that evidence of sound research reveals truth. The problem with this posting has nothing to do with someone not being truthful, neither does it have to do with disagreements of people and their various positions. The problem with this post has to do with using something that has nothing to do with sound research. This post is based on research that James White has produced and he got his research from right-wing Muslims that believe if they can do away with a Muslim that converted to Christianity they will go to heaven when they die. She has given James White a wider audience then he ever would have had.
Blessings,
Tim
It has nothing to do with James White or Mohammad Khan. The information is gleaned from Ergun Caner himself and the public record. Do your research. The longer you defend this liar the worse your own testimony is tarnished.
Brother Wade,
Please read my response to your Dad. Now, you have classified someone as a Muslim Christian. There is not such thing. Seeing you have no problem placing the lives of people in jeopardy, I now see the reason you were censored by the IMB.
I will pray for you.
Tim
I am sure he meant formerly Muslim Christian, but thank you for pointing out that gnat.
In these days of purpose driven seeker sensitive evangelicalism, being censored by a church board has become almost a badge of honor because it too oftenb happens in response to standing for the truth and against the encroachment of error.
Tim Rogers,
Seeing you have no problem placing the lives of people in jeopardy, I now see the reason you were censored by the IMB. Wow, Tim, that hurt my feelings.
Laughing.
I would suggest that if Ergun’s life is in jeopardy that he leave his highly visible post, stop writing books about his former life as a Muslim, and go into hiding like Salmon Rushdie–or trust Christ to protect Him in the same manner He saved Him. I do not believe Debbie’s little ole blog post is the cause of death threats.
Wade,
So sad. You know why I called. I pray people will do for you should you ever be in a similiar situation (and I honestly pray you will not be) what you refuse to do for a brother in Christ and his family. You have called for the same thing with missionaries. Why not now?
Tim Guthrie,
I didn’t write this post, Debbie did. You asked me to ask her to remove it. The reason you gave is it puts lives in danger. I’m sorry, but I don’t buy it. The son of the leader of Hamas spoke at our church. He’s the one in real danger. One of these days you will see the illogic of claiming Dr. White and Debbie is putting the Caners’ in danger. The Caners’ profit off their ministry by speaking engagements, writing books, and traveling the country.
Were radical Muslims serious in their objections to the Caners, a little ole Southern Baptist blog neither adds to, or detracts from, the Muslim hatred toward the Caners.
The one thing that COULD be damaged by a Southern Baptist blog that questions the background, education and narrative of the Caner brothers is their reputation if it is proven there is subterfuge or dishonesty. But LIVES are not in danger by this blog.
Tim Rogers, Tim G. and CB:
You all have confused me how you all care about Ergun Caner’s life but you all do not appear to get so concerned about others especially those that were impacted by the CR.
And then you all come over here and demand Debbie take this post down. Wonder how you would react if others demanded that especially Tim G. and Tim Rogers remove one of their posts.
It appears this post is staying up.
It appears this post is staying up. I read the emails sent and while I am honestly moved both for concern for me and for Dr. Caner and his family, yes, it is staying up.I’ll be honest and say along with Wade that I didn’t buy it either, although I did not dismiss the idea that you guys do. I do not.
If what you say is true, Wade is right, my blog should have no bearing on a man who appears not just around the country but on television. I did not come to that decision lightly which is why I have been absent from this stream and not answering the emails sent. I thought long and hard. I as a Christian woman and Southern Baptist would like to know the answers.
I could have asked and presented more than I have here. Such as the claim Ergun made that his father helped build a mosque in Ohio that was proven with the actual deed that I saw and read that it was built in 1903.(scroll down to bottom of page on link) This claim has since been removed from Ergun’s site. And yes, there is more, but I stopped where I stopped. Now I have taken into consideration that he could have meant reconstructed. The building would have been old and in need of repair and reconstruction from time to time. But I could also counter that with as intelligent as Ergun Caner is, many times more than myself, he should have worded it that way.
I also wonder how Muslims are catching this stuff able to provide iron clad proof and we didn’t.
Thank you Wade, Paul, Tom.
Tim and Tim, You guys are too much. Debbie is putting Caner’s life in danger with these questions?
I have to agree with Wade on this one. The guy WANTS to be in the public eye. He writes books, does speaking gigs, has a high profile job, etc. and this little blog post is putting his life in danger?
You guys sound like little girls using the same kind of logic.
“The son of the leader of Hamas spoke at our church. He’s the one in real danger.”
And I listened to him online at Wade’s church. Now there is a guy who is in danger.
Now, Tim and Tim, I want to ask a question…is someone asking you all to make these requests in favor of Caner? Is it common knowledge in your circles to protect Caner from his own words using this hyperbole and comparing him to missionaries who are NOT trying to be famous and in the public eye?
BTW: I am NO fan of James White, either.
“Seeing you have no problem placing the lives of people in jeopardy, I now see the reason you were censored by the IMB”.
Amazing. You guys do not hear how ridiculous you sound. Wade was censored for putting missionaries in danger?
Would you like to explain that one since those of us who have been reading his blog for several years know it is just the opposite. Remember, he allows them to speak anonymously on his blog for security reasons.
Go ahead and explain it. I would like to hear it. Or is this just another sound bite insult you think folks will believe because of who you are?
Blogging is great. It has helped me see what is in the hearts and minds of so many SBC pastors and it is not spiritual at all.
Lydia:
I often wonder if the CR would have been as “successful” as it was had there been the internet at the time it began in 1979. I tend to believe it would not have been. More and more people are beginning to see the ugliness that was hid for so many years about those that destroyed others by hiding their deeds in the dark. There is a great big light now and it is called the internet
Tom, I think more folks like me who supported it initially would have seen what was really going on. It would have become more and more obvious it was about power and not truth which brings humility.
But, I want you to know that I believe guys like you are just as political as I am. And when the CBF has guys like Clinton and Gore speaking at their conferences they are making their focus known, too.
Both sides are wrong.
Lydia:
I 100% agree with you on comment 37.
It sure appears the guys calling for the post to come down have left the building.
Lydia,
You sound like my wife and that’s the greatest compliment I could ever pay anyone.
Debbie:
Should we be suprised when one of the three calling for you to remove this post put up for their own blog post refuting this one and any other one that would ask legitimate questions about this issue?
Once again it is a well used CR tactic, especially the questioning of the faith of those that ask legitimate questions.
I’m doubtful it will work this time.
My goodness! One would think that if condemning and not easily dismissed evidence surfaces impugning the character of a Christian apologetics speaker, the first response of (let’s face it, fundamentalist) friends and supporters would be to dismantle and refute that evidence with proof of innocence and explanations of all the details. The first response should not be shooting the messengers or turning a deaf ear to the evidence simply because it is presented by someone who has a different religion (though I do acknowledge there is a negative motive here). Here’s hoping that for all of our sakes that Ergun Caner is innocent and there is sufficient explanation for all the video. But the point remains, in the interest of integrity should not impugning evidence be refuted first, rather than impugning the motives of those who are presenting the evidence or are troubled by it?
Byron:
It is a well used CR tactic that sadly has worked very well in the past. I’m hoping that people are beginning to see how these fundamentalist have been operating for years, now that more of what they have been doing in the past in the dark is now open to people’s eyes via the internet.
I’m just amazed that even someone like CB Scott would almost seem to dismiss the evidence out of hand and immediately fret that exposing or repeating this evidence will endanger the Caner’s. I certainly don’t want to endanger the Caners, but I don’t understand this attitude that dismisses evidence and detractors and seeks no defense against it as if defense or explanation is unnecessary. If this evidence is public and as easily obtainable as it seems to be, then one could argue that Caner is contributing to Islamic rage against himself by not answering and refuting the evidence, which also attacks the integrity of Christianity (at least in the eyes of non-Christians like Muslims and the like).
Byron: It’s easy to verify the information. All I did was Google using certain phrases that I was looking for. That’s it. And a lot of reading. A lot. A lot of watching. A lot. I read and watched several times to get the facts straight. I took notes. Hard work, easy to find information. Too much information in fact. It would have taken me several more posts to fit all of it in. Anyone could do it if they had say a six to eight or more hours.
The reason I did it was made clear in my opening post. I am very concerned that this is the way we have gone for too long. I also say that is as much our fault as it is Dr. Caner’s, if my suspicions are true. Sometimes the more sensation, the more credibility we give it. We are just as wrong. At least in my opinion.
Debbie, maybe I have the wrong attitude about this, but had you brought up questions against someone who is not a fundamentalist darling, certain persons who cried foul on this blog might not have protested so loudly.
Debbie, maybe I should not have said that. I have no idea what their motives are, and it is not fair for me to assume worse than what I actually have evidence for. However, I think my points above are valid, concerning refuting evidence and defending Christianity.
Oh DEBBIE, there is a lot ‘out there’ about Caner. Why you targeted by some commenters as a person who might cause problems for anyone is beyond me.
Check this site out:
http://religiopoliticaltalk.blogspot.com/2009/12/breaking-news-religio-political-at.html
The thing I don’t understand is this: the concern for the welfare of Caner’s family is so dramatically expressed by some of your commentators. But one may ask, where were these men-of-integrity when Dr. Klouda’s family was targeted ? (And targeted supposedly by ‘Christians’.)
Credibility is built on consistency.
Caner has lost his credibility. He sought to profit mightily from the image that he has created for himself. The Scriptures warn of such things. Maybe he started to believe his own lies, and got caught in his own web?
Thank you for sharing what you have discovered. Don’t worry, this kind of thing is all over the web concerning him and it’s been out there for a while. Love, L’s
Correction: My second sentence should begin:
‘Why you WERE targeted . . . ‘
‘
Below links are FBC Jax Watchdog blog:
FBC Jax Gets Good Laugh at Racial and Ethnic Stereotypes.
The Marketing of a Man…..
Thanks Paul, I consider that a real compliment.
)
Tom: Good!
Thing is, guys, I have heard these questions before and a while back. I cannot remember where but the point is these are not new questions. Concerns about the Caners murkey biography have been around since they have been in the public eye.
It really is nutty to accuse Debbie of putting his life in danger over a blog post when he is a public figure who writes books, speaks out against Islam with speaking engagments, etc. It is almost as if they are desperate and that is the only rebuke they have. This stuff must work where they come from.
Otherwise, it makes little logical sense.
It makes little logical sense to me either Lydia. Which is one reason I decided to keep this post up. The information I have here is written in his book, which has been updated according to Emir Caner’s site, it was on Ergun’s various sites, it’s public. I saw it for myself at both of their sites and I linked to the book itself. He said some of these things on a widely watched TV show. TBN channel for one.
Debbie – they are legit questions. But asking hard questions of the leaders of the SBC gets you in hot water. Caner is a favorite of the big boys, and thus any hard questions about his past or inconsistencies of his stories will not be answered, and you’ll be attacked for even asking them.
I was at FBC Jax, sitting in the pew, when Darrel Gilyard appeared on the scene. They said he grew up homeless, sleeping under a bridge, and suddenly appeared as the “black Jerry Vines”. I was gullible, and believed it hook, line and sinker. He was a fraud, and never, ever lived under a bridge. His lie would never have been found out, except that he happened to be a serial adulterer preying on women too.
Now, when Caner was introduced to FBC Jax as the “former Suni Muslim”, I believed that too. So was he a “former practicing Muslim”, or was he a chubby kid who grew up in the Midwest? I could call myself a “former Catholic of Italian descent”…my parents were Catholic, but I never darkened the door of a Catholic church, and yes I’m Italian, but have never set foot in Italy. So it makes one wonder if we were all sold an “image” of who he was.
I’m glad you are asking the questions. Keep asking them.
Thank you Tom. By nature I am a inquisitive person. If 1 plus 1 doesn’t equal 2, I have to know why.
You raise an important point on another reason I wrote this post, and I touched on this point in my post. I’m so glad you wrote what you did on believing both Caner and Gilyard as you did. I believed both stories too. I felt betrayed in a small sense when the Darrell Gilyard story proved not to be true. The same with Ted Haggard. It comes from putting our eyes on them and not where they should be..on Christ. Lesson learned. If we feel this way, so do others. Trust is put in those who are high profile leaders, just as much trust as we have in our local ministers.
If we haven’t learned that we are wrong, through Haggard, Gilyard, and so many others who are not who they say they are, I don’t think we are going to survive and the GCR means nothing to me. We need to start with accountability. But right now I am open to letting Dr. Caner explain.
I think you and Tom are hitting on something. Patterson and others knew about the problems with Gilyard long before they became so bad. Yet they did nothing except Patterson did insult the victims who came to him. Why the protection?
Was it because they had promoted him and during that time it was good to have a black evangelist?
Are we seeing the same type of protection and promotion of Caner because he is good ‘star’ quality because of his supposed Muslim roots?
Does this protection have more to do with image than truth? It is just another reason I totally shy away from any promoted Christian celebrity. I am done with that life. I have seen it up close and personal. And it is a huge sin trap for the celebrity Christian, too.
Was it because they had promoted him and during that time it was good to have a black evangelist?
Are we seeing the same type of protection and promotion of Caner because he is good ’star’ quality because of his supposed Muslim roots?
Yes Lydia, I believe so, although with Dr. Caner I am leaving room for answers to the questions. I sincerely would like explanations from him as to why so many different stories. Why didn’t you know what a person steeped in Muslim doctrine would know, and not forget easily.
We have gotten so into celebrity worship, pride says keep it hid. Protect. All of this could have been verified. I realize that some may not have seen the need to do so, because who would lie about something like that among Christians? But Paul speaks of this in scripture. There were those who did this in the time of the early church too.
We have leaders who are supposed to lead, but I feel as if they have failed us too many times. Leadership is supposed to be for truth, whatever that truth is. Instead they are silent, or stick up for the person whose evidence stacks up against them. I have never accepted that. That is not leadership. That’s corruption. In the case of Darrell Gilyard, who is now in jail last I heard, that is leadership corruption. I do not blindly follow. Ever.
I still want to trust, but it’s getting more and more difficult. If I feel my trust has been violated, others do too or will if this is discovered. But we are forgiving too. That I believe as well.
Does this protection have more to do with image than truth? It is just another reason I totally shy away from any promoted Christian celebrity. I am done with that life. I have seen it up close and personal. And it is a huge sin trap for the celebrity Christian, too.
Lydia the more I read you the more I like to read you.:) I think you first sentence is exactly right. You are a very wise woman.
Some in this comment section say that this is old news. Some of this information (videos) has only been out since October of 2009. That’s seven months, not a very long time, and it’s not old news if I am just now finding out about it.
If it’s old news, why didn’t one Southern Baptist question the obvious can’t be denied discrepancies by Dr. Caner?
Tim Guthrie in one of the comments mentioned that this is not about politics. He’s right. It’s not. It’s about ethics. It’s about honesty. It’s about living like who we are which is children of God, followers of Christ.
If time is spent either in silence by other Southern Baptists, Dr. Caner or spent trying to discredit evidence by these folks that is iron clad and can’t be denied in my opinion(they did their homework well),instead of answering why the different stories, why the mistakes in adding prophets, confusing leaders, etc, then in my mind, we as a denomination are further from the path of Christ than I realized, and many of my questions will have already been answered by Dr. Caner and others silence, or attempt to discredit evidence that in a reasonable mind can’t be discredited and be honest.
As a Christian and a Southern Baptist, I’m not going to be satisfied with the above answers. Accountability comes to play here.
Definition of the word research:”In the broadest sense of the word, the definition of research includes any gathering of data, information and facts for the advancement of knowledge.
Reading a factual book of any sort is a kind of research. Surfing the internet or watching the news is also a type of research.”
In other words it is using third and second party sources.
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I just wanted to say that for twenty years I have defended our faith by being an arm-chair apologist. One aspect that i have found myself defending against is the misconceptions of verses like the seemingly different and thusly seemingly contradictory lineages of Jesus in Luke and Matthew. You learn there are great answers to these.
There are examples of the four Gospels being from the perspective of four differing people telling of the same story and it is often analogized through the story of a car wreck and each person being on one of the four corners. When the police come and take down eyewitness accounts there are four versions of the same event.
As Seinfeld would say, “yada, yada, yada.” I tried to apply this thinking to Caner and his event he has told and wrote about. Caner fails even this most gracious test. Debbie, don’t back down, hold your ground, there are others out there in the ether of the Internet that support you, even if it doesn’t often seem like it. It doesn’t matter that this topic was pointed to firstly by Muslim’s, whom I argue the first two apologetic examples with the most. Truth is truth no matter where it comes from.
Papa Giorgio
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Thank you Papa Giorgio.
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Hi Debbie,
I am Mohammad Khan,
I am the maker of those videos which you speak of. I congratulate for not being like those blind followers of Ergun Caner who deliberately overlook all of his lies and untruths.
Please go to http://www.fakeexmuslims.com/issues.htm
It will aid you in your research.
Thank you again
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This is the straw that has broken the camels back for me.
Debbie,
Maybe SBC, in this case Liberty is seeing lying to sell products or image as ‘normal’ because some pastors, TV evangelists and missionaries so often are lying about numbers and such for the sake of money. I think in this Caner’s case it is popularity and sales. Don’t you think it is a common disease among evangelicals? I also think it is the SBC culture and or Baptist culture specifically that inspire the Caners and in one sense produces them.
Calcun
calcun: Lying and normal shouldn’t be in the vocabulary or lives of Christians. It’s time it was not normal. Lying is sin according to the Bible. There is forgiveness, but only if we repent. Dr. Caner is not only selling a wrong and bigoted message about Muslims, but women, and other ethnic groups. That should not be normal either. But the biggest travesty is that we are giving Christ to those who need eternal life, a change life, a life with Christ, and Dr. Caner is selling a medicine show as truth. No wonder our number are going down, people no longer believe in going to church, and that includes many born again Christians. We are selling and approving a lie that you term as normal.
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I think the main problem is not having a solid foundation in theology. In the Evangelical world especially, this is a growing problem… but this type of postmodern thinking is infecting many denominations. I have written about this at some length on my site. While many positions of the Caner’s may be spot on, it is enveloped in a lie, which negates their message. The basics need reinvigorating in the face of the cultural onslaught that our generation is only a small part of (http://www.biblebelievers.com/machen/). The free market will work its wonders and as people find out about Liberty’s blind eye, they will go somewhere else. My oldest was planning on going (distance) to Liberty, but I have talked him into going to Geisler’s seminary after he gets his BA.
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