Home > Women And The Church, church > I Am More Egalitarian Than I Want To Admit

I Am More Egalitarian Than I Want To Admit

I’m sure my title comes as no surprise to those who have been reading me for awhile.

This piece from the Gender blog written by Randy Stinson, has bothered me since I have read it. I realize that Al Mohler, John Piper, Dorothy Patterson, Danny Akin, to name a few, are members of the CBMW, but I can’t go against what I see in scripture and has yet to be addressed by this group, along with other complementarians.

I also invite you to read insightful posts written by Emily Hunter McGowin, who I respect and like to read, along with a blog that has a series running on leadership, for the thinking Christian woman, words that are unusual to hear in the Christian Community, along with the recent post by Mary Burleson, another woman I have come to know personally, albeit briefly, and not only like to read, but respect.  Also Alyce Faulkner, who is a bright mind among Christian women. She and her husband Mackey have recently begun a ministry that serves women just out of prison, along with their children.

But back to the article in question. The main problem I have with this piece is that I see it as taking a hyperbole, and making a case out of it. I do not support the gender changing of the Bible. I do however think that ministers and teachers must stress that the masculine words used for both men and women are meant for both men and women. I stress this whenever I teach a lesson.It makes a huge difference in women’s  lives to hear this.

Next, are the points that Randy Stinson makes which I would like to address point by point. His first point being:

1. The authority of scripture is at stake.

The Bible clearly teaches that men and women are equal in value and dignity and are have distinct and complementary roles in the home and the church.  If churches disregard these teachings and accommodate the culture, then the members of those churches and subsequent generations will be less likely to submit to God’s word in other difficult matters as well.

I disagree that the authority of scripture is at stake just because a person is egalitarian. The word egalitarian is derived from the French word ‘egal, which  means that both men and women are equal.

Wade Burleson posted a piece written by another author, that gave detailed scriptural basis for the author’s beliefs which were egalitarian. Scriptural authority was used, and used quite well. You can read it here, here, here,here, here,and here. Also if you log into the CBE website, you will find a solid Biblical basis for what they believe.

This has nothing to do with culture, although I believe it is culture that showed the church their mistakes in how they counseled and treated women. It was culture that showed women deserved better than being talked down to, made to be literally silent, something Paul did not mean in the passages given. I don’t hear a sermon or read an article from the complementarian view on the women who had a strong role in the ministry of Christ, Paul, nor of those in the Old Testament, other than to explain away why they were leaders. That seems to take away from the authority of scripture. The authority of the Bible being something I embrace.

2.The health of the home is at stake.

If families do not structure their homes properly, in disobedience to the teaching of Ephesians 5, 1 Peter 3, and Colossians 3, then they will not have the proper foundation upon which to withstand the temptations of the devil and the various onslaughts of the world.  This hinders the sanctification of married couples and also introduces confusion about basic parenting issues such as raising masculine sons and feminine daughters.

The obvious first question would be, how is equally respecting and submitting to one another as husband and wife “a temptation of the devil or a onslaught of the world”? How does mutually respecting and submitting to one another, treating each other as equals, better yet, treating the wife as a thinking adult, hindering sanctification in the marriage or hindering raising masculine sons or feminine daughter?

If masculinity requires that women be looked on as someone they need to lead, then that may be the first of many problems. If femininity requires we look upon men as someone who needs to lead us, or that we even need to be led by a man, that may be the start of more problems.

When we lean on another person, it tends to take our eyes off of Christ and to put them on that other person. Also, how many complimentarians have said, it is wise to listen to the wife. They listen to their wives, using them as a sounding board and often times ask their opinion. Male Complementarians describe their wife as their best friend, as it should be. Where is that different from the egalitarian view?

There is no disobedience of the passages above, especially when taken in context with the rest of the book speaking of mutual submission. Galatians where Paul speaks of their being no Jew nor Greek, no male or female. God has given Christ authority and power. Christ did the Father’s will here on earth, but Christ could have called ten thousand angels down. He willingly submitted to the Father’s will. God can give no wrong instruction, He cannot sin, He is perfect as Christ is perfect. Christ was 100% human but also 100% God. Neither I nor my husband can make that claim. I might also give statistics of church going Christian men who have verbally or physically abused their wives, quoting these very passages. It’s a growing problem among Christian men. That to me is de-sanctifying and unhealthy for the home. What that teaches our girls is harmful, what it teaches our boys is harmful as they pass it on to their home.

I will stop here for now, addressing the rest of the points in the next post or two, hoping this gives you…

Something to think about.

  1. July 23, 2008 at 7:34 am | #1

    Debbie,

    EXCELLENT.

    I, as always, have a bit of a problem with labels. But I use them [egalitarianism/complementarianism] because they clarify the point under discussion. I haven’t read the link but speaking of the two points you have questioned in this post I could say the same thing using egalitarianism as the basis for correctness. I would say it differently in tone and finality [dogmatism] but you get what I mean. [By the way, your correction about it diminishing the authority of scripture would be as needed had I said it using egalitarianism as a basis for the remark in my judgment.]

    My prefered way is to talk of the meaning of the words and text of scripture period. I see that same desire in you and know that is why you are hesitant [one reason] to identify with egalitarianism completely. It is the same reason you refuse to identify with complementarianism completely just because some of your favorite authors [and mine] do so.

    I guess my comment is a long way of saying this is one of the better statements about an issue I’ve come to see differently than I once did and it’s from one who is still unsure exactly where she stands on it except to say the authority and sufficiency of scripture are without question on this or any issue that is a biblical one. Maybe it is your position that is the healthiest of all. Good work.

  2. PJ
    July 23, 2008 at 9:37 am | #2

    Well said, Debbie. I think it’s sad if either “comp” or “egal” have become litmus tests for the quality/validity of a Christian marriage, though that seems to be what is happening in the bigger circles, and more on one side than the other. Remember how the pharisees tried to pigeonhole Jesus, to determine and test his “camp.” But Jesus pointed out how they neglected mercy toward others and honesty toward themselves in their efforts to be theologically correct. Ecclesiastical power hasn’t changed that much throughout time, regardless of denomination or period.

    “It follows clearly that no man or body of men in these times can be the infallible judges or determiners in matters of religion to any other men’s consciences but their own.” -Milton

    “As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit – just as it has taught you, remain in him.” I John 2:24

  3. July 23, 2008 at 6:09 pm | #3

    Thanks JP and Paul. Your insights are always valuable to me. I had another comment up, which was not bad, just to explain to those who read the previous comments, but now in addition to the other points in Mr. Stilton’s post, the open letter to the egalitarian is also something I will be addressing. It’s unfortunate that there is only feedback by email on the Gender blog. I would like for there to be comments so that discussion could be had. But I respect that they choose not to go this route. There are a few other blogs that have done this, which to me seems as if one cannot disagree, or at least publicly. That kind of squelches any discussion. So I’ll be tackling that here. :)

    What I did mention in the other comment that bears repeating here is that Emily Hunter McGowin had a definition of feminist that I also fit. That’s adding another log to the fire. :)

    I’ve been combing Emily’s blog for the definition so that I word it just right, and for the life of me I can’t find it. I have a call in to her however and left a message to get it to me. When she does, I’ll post it here. It was very good. I’d give the Kaufman translation of it, but I don’t want to slaughter it. :)

  4. July 23, 2008 at 8:43 pm | #4

    Debbie,

    I wrote Mr. Stinson an E-mail after following your link to his post and reading the entirety of what he had to say. That since comments are not permitted. I haven’t heard back yet. I tried to cc you that E-mail but for some reason could not find your E-mail address.

    If I do hear back I’ll make a decision whether it is appropriate to share it or not. I hope it will be possible to but would not want to be unethical in any fashion as you can imagine.

    Again, thanks for your thoughts that are so valuable to us all.

  5. July 23, 2008 at 9:12 pm | #5

    I do understand Paul. I agree with you. I would not want any email forwarded to me that would go against your conscience to do so, nor would I forward any that would go against my conscience in doing so.

    I have always wanted to interact with the Gender blog, and while I understand their reasoning, they don’t want it to become a free for all I imagine. But one way to hash things out is for both views to converse, several times. At least then a more accurate portrayal can be had. We are not a bunch of men haters, authority stealers, or some other misnomers that are probably occurring on both ends.

  6. July 23, 2008 at 10:52 pm | #6

    BTW Paul, my email address is in my “about” located in my sidebar. But it is kaufmd@gmail.com.

  7. July 24, 2008 at 9:58 am | #7

    Emily McGowin has graciously given me the definition of feminist that she had on her blog. Thank you Emily.

    “Someone who supports the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, economic, and social equality to men.”

  8. July 25, 2008 at 10:26 am | #8

    I am so thankful for blog posts like this. When I get tired and discouraged because it feels like I am not making headway in Bible study or I am tempted to succomb to distractions I just remind myself that there are people who teach doctrines such as this—that men and women have equal roles, that men are not called to be the servant leaders of their home, that men and women can serve as leaders/pastors over the entire congregation. When I remind myself of the fact that those false doctrines are taught I am strongly motivated to spend that much more time in Bible study. Thank you.

  9. July 25, 2008 at 12:09 pm | #9

    Thank you Joe. You just made my day. :)

  10. July 25, 2008 at 12:19 pm | #10

    Kindest regards, Ms. Kaufman.

  11. Lin
    August 22, 2008 at 6:44 pm | #11

    The problem I have with articles like Mr. Stinsons is that he is alluding that those of us who are egals are in sin or are unbiblical? How can mutual submission be sinful or unbiblical? A commenter said recently that egalitarianism is the middle ground between Patriarchy and Matriarchy. I have to wonder how egalitarianism can be defined as radical by CBMW when it is about mutual submission?

    When I read Eph 5 now (taking out chapter and verse numbers), I see mutual submission for all believers and women actually being lifted UP. Women were the legal property of their husbands and Paul did not tell them to obey their husbands as their authority. He said, submit to them as part of your body. And I would really appreciate it if CBMW could explain to me how a husband can carry out the rest of that passage without submitting! :o )

    I have to ask if CBMW wants married men in the Body of Christ to ignore Eph 5:21? Are they teaching, indirectly, that it does not apply to them?

  12. August 22, 2008 at 9:35 pm | #12

    You are asking good questions Lin, and the same questions I have always had. I have yet to see a good answer. I don’t hold my breath waiting.

  13. August 23, 2008 at 2:28 pm | #13

    Would someone care to explain how mutual submission mean that there are no differences in roles for men and women (i.e. women are not supposed to submit to the servant-leadership of their own husbands). For instance, when a husband is doing what he is supposed to do and loving his wife as Christ loved the church, that seems pretty submissive to me. However, that does not mean that he is no longer the servant-leader in the home. Certainly no Christian would suggest that Christ was any less God in His incarnation even though he was called God’s Servant.

    Thank you again for the reminder that there are people who interpret scripture the way you do. This blog, and this post in particular, are a great source of motivation. May God bless you and yours.

  14. August 23, 2008 at 4:07 pm | #14

    Joe: That is a fair question that I have no problem answering briefly. The fact is too many Christian men do abuse this. Even those without Christ believe the complementarian view. Even those in other countries without Christ believe it and abuse it. Christ, the Bible is different than all other religions, even in the treatment and placement of women.

    A woman is an adult. With a brain. Ambitions. Talents. Women are as different as snowflakes, as are men. Women nor men should never be put in a one mold fits all. She also does not need to be led. In fact if you will look in Genesis, you will find, if you read the passage in context, that Eve was to be a helper to Adam. The word helper is used in the same way that the passage God is our helper, is used. In the home, there should be no “leader.” In fact that was not God’s original design when He created Adam and Eve. When we become born again, I believe God reverts the marriage back to the way he originally designed it. I could also go to scriptures where women were involved deeply in the ministry of Christ. I am not advocating taking the place of a man, I am saying that we are all equal, and society hasn’t gotten that fact all that wrong.

    Joe: I have heard more objection from men concerning this doctrine than I have anyone else. My advice, think about it, or try it for a week, have your wife make all the decisions. Let her lead the home, just to see how it feels. I can tell you it’s frustrating and not fun for the woman. And what would happen if something happened to you. What financial position would your wife be in? Especially considering that a large percentage of single mothers or single women are in poverty here in the United States?

    I’m actually glad you asked this question Joe, it was an honest question and I for one greatly appreciated it. If you want further detail, I’d be happy to provide it, possibly in another post, but I’m sure you have heard all the scriptures I would give, which is why I shortened it.

  15. Lin
    August 23, 2008 at 5:56 pm | #15

    “She also does not need to be led. In fact if you will look in Genesis, you will find, if you read the passage in context, that Eve was to be a helper to Adam. The word helper is used in the same way that the passage God is our helper, is used. In the home, there should be no “leader.” ”

    They are co-rulers to their family.

    1 Tim 5:14
    14So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.

    The word ‘manage’ really means to be the despot of their home. The ruler. The Greek word is oikodespoteo and means :to be the head of (i.e. rule) a family:–guide the house.

    Somehow the translators could not bring themselves to translate this word in its real meaning. :o ).

  16. August 23, 2008 at 5:59 pm | #16

    Debbie, you wrote
    “A woman is an adult. With a brain. Ambitions. Talents. Women are as different as snowflakes, as are men.”

    I totally concur. I would not presume to speak for anyone else, but in our home I’m not telling my wife what she is gonna do and if she doesn’t snap to then, by gosh, there’s gonna be a problem. We discuss decisions and work together to make them. My house is not a dictatorship. Ultimately, I take full responsiblity for the decisions but I can only think of a handful of times that I have ever unilaterally decided something. Those were pretty extreme situations (once she was in the hospital, for instance).

    Further, just for anyone who is interested, this is not a litmus test to me as to whether someone is saved or not. I have no doubt that when I get to heaven, I’ll see that I was wrong about some things. It happens.

    As to what would happen in the even of my death, I have life insurance. Couple that with a soverign God and a very smart woman and I know she would be fine.

  17. August 23, 2008 at 6:19 pm | #17

    And I would say that you have a very, very balanced view Joe. :)

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